The Second Mix Podcast - Reflect, Revise, and Remix Your Life
March 20, 2023

How Can You Be Valuable To Others?

How Can You Be Valuable To Others?

Richard Friesen works with professionals and business leaders who want to increase their personal effectiveness with joy and grace. His neuroscience-based Mind Muscles™ model gives his clients the opportunity to reach their goals with online training, simulations, interactive exercises, group support, and real-time decision processes.

Richard has been a futures broker for Merrill Lynch, a floor trader on the CME, CBOT, and the options floor of the Pacific Exchange where he built and sold a successful options trading firm where he served on the Exchange's board of directors. He also founded and built a financial software company and is the inventor of ten significant trading interface patents. This combined with his Master’s Degree in Clinical Psychology, Neurolinguistics Programing Master’s certification, and neuroscience focus, brings a unique framework to business, investing, and career success.

Rich is building a Money-Positive community with his book “A Private Conversation with Money” and his online course. This book observes the main character “Joe” who deals with all the conflicts, self-sabotage and belief systems around money and wealth.

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Richard, if we were at a party and I just met you, and I asked you what you do, what would you tell me? 

I work with people who want to expand their relationship with money, meaning, and success. 

So how do you in general work with people in coaching or groups? How do you do that?

Oh, a number of ways. I have been a coach and a therapist for many years for people in the financial world, hedge fund managers, money market managers, uh, active traders. And a few years ago I saw some of the conflicts we have in our culture around money, meaning and wealth. So I wrote a book. You can see it behind me, "A Private Conversation with Money" and now I work with people who are conflicted and stressed around money in their financial world.

Our culture is splitting in two parts around money and wealth, and so my invitation is to invite people to be in rapport with delivering value to others and how that translates into what I call certificates of appreciation. 

Okay, and what are certificates of appreciation? 

Let's say you deliver some value to me and I take out on my billfold, and I give you a certificate of appreciation for what you deliver.

What that does is it totally reframes money. From, you know, the word money, you can almost taste the money is root of all evil. You know, wealthy people have too much, they're taking it all. Unfairness injustice. There's never enough, you know, I've been cheated outta money. So we have those neurological connections in our brain around the language.

So I re language it to say it's a certificate of appreciation. 

You sound like you generally deal with people in the finance world, and of course you wrote a book about money. So obviously you kind of aim towards money.

Um, but, you know, I also saw a lot of, a lot of personal development , in, in your profile. . And so you seem to connect the two money and personal development. How do those two things work together? 

Well, money is a symptom of deeper issues and just like a lot of other behaviors, addictions or greed or, inability to establish relationships , if we look at those as symptoms, then we can look at the deeper issues. And in my current model is on the top we have knowledge. What information do we have? We have skills. How do I take that information and turn it into value? We have beliefs about our world. What do I believe? What movies do I play in my head?

And then, uh, deeper that we have our identity. Who am I? Do I deserve to walk in this world? Am I a worthy person? And so if we look at money as a symptom, we can then go down to the deeper issues and don't tell anybody, but it's really about personal transformation. 

Okay. Okay. So you say money is a symptom.

Do you mean like the lack of money is a symptom or money is a symptom? 


We view money is a symptom. Okay? And that could be a lack, for example, there are people who s, in fact, the character in my book wants to be a good person. He has a good heart. There's a lot of people who want to really have the world be a better place for everyone.

And if they were to become wealthy, oh my God. They would be one of "them". So for example, that's one symptom of how we look at money and it's detached from, and it's, let's say it's misapplied to us wanting to be really good people. 

Oh, I don't want to get wealthy, cuz wealthy people get corrupted.

Mm-hmm. and they do bad things. Mm-hmm. and all that kinda stuff. Mm-hmm. , wouldn't that just be an excuse for me not to try? 

Well, you're coming right back to your original question, which I think is a really important question is money is a symptom, so I don't want to try. Oh my God. If I try, what if I fail?

I, I'm not worthy of success. I mean, you wouldn't believe this, but professional money managers who I've coached, they hit a point where I'm not worthy of this, or I'm an imposter, or I'm not good enough, I don't deserve it. And the typical. What's called the equity curve, how much money we're doing as a trader or an investor goes like this and then come, boom, it drops off rapidly.

And that point there is not their strategy. It's at a point where they don't deserve or they're conflicted and then they create self-sabotage to take them down. It happens with entrepreneurs. I have a client who studied how to build. A business H V A C business in this case, and I want to sell it to a larger franchise.

So I'm doing everything I can to build this business so that it's shaped exactly the way they wanna buy it. Sure enough, he built it, it was shaped, and the negotiations, all of a sudden it occurred to him he was sabotaging them. So then we worked. What is going on around the sabotage? and it was, I don't deserve this.

Kaboom!. And then as soon as that came up, he said,

right, this , 

I'm gonna, I do deserve it. But there was that underlying subconscious message. 

Wow. So did you have any points in your life where you had limiting beliefs about money? Oh my 


It was April of 95. This tells you I'm a very mature person, . I woke up in the middle of the night and there was this voice, and this voice said, "Rich, you're only worth 200,000 a year". I woke up, looked around, wife was sleeping beside me. Nobody else was in the room, so I got up, showered, dressed, drove across the Golden Gate Bridge to the Pacific Exchange where I was a market maker.

So some background. I went on my own trade after I left a large arbitrage firm, and the first year I was very careful. I made $125,000 in limited capital. The next year, a hundred fifty, a hundred seventy five, two hundred, two hundred. In April of 95, something had changed. I was trading Micron a stock, and it was just taking off and there was just money pouring in.

And in the middle of February I was up 200,000, like was my limit for the entire year. And then I just made a little lost little made a little lost little, and we'd come to April where that voice said, rich, you're only worth 200,000 a year." So I got the exchange so early that it was still closed. I sat on the concrete steps between the two massive pillars and I thought about what was that voice about?

The doors open. I went to the empty floor. There was nobody there yet. And normally I was, I stood in the back of the pit, very careful, taking a little bit of order here, a little bit there. But this time I looked at the best spot in the pit. It was right in the front between the two busiest brokers right in front of the exchange staff so you could hear their limit orders.

And I went and I stood in that. The rest of the market makers came in and the guy who always stood there. And you gotta understand that in a pit you don't own a spot. It's usually commanded by the most aggressive, the most capitalized, the biggest bully. You know, the guy who had the most social weight to be able to, to maintain that spot.

And I stood in it. The guy who always stood there, , looked at the clock, looked at me, you know, the bell was about to go off, gave me this nudge, okay, outta my spot. I didn't move. The whole pit went, oh shit, . Everybody stepped back expecting the fight and exchanged staff warned us after some pushing that if we got in a fight, it would be a $10,000 fine for each of.

Wow. So I stood, I pretended I had concrete boots. The bell went off. No, normally Rich Friesen at the back. "I'll buy one of those. I'll sell you two of those." It wasn't, you know, an option pit. So we had lots of series this time anyways, "buy 50, sell you 20." I would scream, but I don't wanna blow your, your, your ears off.

you know, "I'll buy 20. Sold, sold, sold." The pit thought that Rich Friesen had gone berserk. I went on to make many times that limit. But what it. Was this voice that I was an imposter, I wasn't good enough and I wasn't worthy enough. But as soon as I heard that subconscious voice, I realized I was done with it.

So I went on to build a trading firm. About a third of the traders just took off using my strategies. A third of them did okay, but a third of them just couldn't make it either losing money or couldn't make it. And I thought, "what if they have the same internal limitations?" So I brought in a hypnotherapist and we worked on it.

And it turned out that was the case. One of them couldn't make more money than his father, who was an immigrant, who worked hard, worked three jobs, that if he made more money than his dad, it would be disrespectful. Now, I know that doesn't make sense, but subconsciously that respect for what his father did for him, he couldn't disrespect him.

Another grew up dirt poor in West Virginia. If he made money, he would, his family would disown 'em because that was not how their community operated. Another one had to deal with a handicapped brother and a mother and making money would've brought all that up. So once we worked on that, then we could move forward.

And that's, why I wrote the book, A Private Conversation with Money, to get to those deeper issues where we're conflicted. To invite us into rapport with our money, meaning, and success. 

How does meaning fall into that then? 

Well, that is one of the hardest questions you could ask . I'm 

good at that.

I'm really good at 

that. Sorry. But it is the right hard question. So I grew up religious. My father was an evangelical preacher, and we had meaning, you know, there was the God, there was a, uh, a structure for our life. There was a higher calling for us and humanity. So, you know, for those who have a religious belief that that meaning can be translated in my terms to delivering value to others and delivering value.

We receive certificates of appreciation. The more certificates we receive, the more value we've delivered. Now, for those of you who are outside of it, how do we create meaning in our lives? And for most of us, it has to do with relationships, connected and family. So however you, you get to meaning, and by the way, if you don't get to meaning, Life then can, you know, it's like being just blown around by the wind.

It's really difficult to have a path and feel, uh, the deepest satisfaction in life. Okay. So 

with these limiting beliefs that we have about money, uh, how do you think that these are the same exact kind of limiting beliefs that we have about other areas in our life? 

Sure. Like I, we talked about initially, money is just a symptom and it could very well be that it's a symptom of a deeper issue.

And if we have a deeper issue, let's say it's the deepest issue at all of all, and that's worthiness. Am I worthy to walk on this earth with my head high, my shoulders back? Do I deserve to hold space on the earth like everyone? And the answer is obviously, of course you do, but down deep from childhood at the deepest levels, we absorb a belief or we take on a belief that I'm not worthy.

So if we're not worthy, then it translates to money. It translates to family. It translates to spouses and relationships all over the place to our job, our effort. It just, it, it debilitates us at every level. 

Is there a way to seek out and recognize these limiting beliefs? I mean, you, you were fortunate to have that limiting belief called to you in a dream.

And in your sleep, you, you heard it, you recognized it, and then you were able to analyze it. Uh, I think it, it seems like when we are inside ourselves, we can't recognize that stuff. We need some kind of external, and for you, the external was brought out. How could I, let's say, seek out and destroy those , those limiting beliefs that I have if I don't even know that they exist?

Well, I think what you're bringing up is really an important part in that. What happened to me that felt like accidentally then how do we make it intentional? Yes. And the process that I'm currently uly using is what I call the golden keys first. It's awareness. So we can demonstrate that right now. I'm going to take a trip through my body and just look at my physical awareness, and I invite you to do the same thing.

Right now, my face, my throat's relaxed. Uh, shoulders are a little tense. I notice that, uh, breathing's a little shallow. Ah, see legs are relaxed. Uh, a little cramp in my left foot. So the first step is, Physical awareness now. 

Emotional awareness. Oh, I'm excited. This is a great conversation. You are asking questions that really push me to the limit.

I find that challenging and I'm, I'm really, I'm find I'm up for it and I'm excited right now. What are the quality of my thoughts? Hmm. I'm at ease. The thoughts are I, I can handle. So what I just did is I demonstrated the Golden Keys awareness of, well, the first of the Golden Keys, which is awareness, my physiology, my emotions, my thoughts.

The next step is acceptance. So my shoulders were tight. I don't say, "Rich, listen to your shoulders. , you idiot, whatcha you doing with 10 shoulders?" I say, "okay, my shoulders are tense." If, uh, let's say I had a negative emotion, I was being self-critical, I would say, okay, that's interesting. I'm being self-critical right now.

Hmm. Fascinating. So, Awareness, acceptance. And then the last is, as we gain these skills, then we can say, I have agency. I am able to turn this awareness to a higher level. So now I can make a decision while being aware of all of this, but with agency rather than just being reactive. 

And the Golden Keys. , are they written about in your 


Yes. They, uh, Joe, the main character is reactive. He's angry, he's upset, he's got beliefs about the world, about money that are a disservice for him and for the people and friends around him. So he gets a visit from money and then they go through all the major precepts and, and I think what you pointed out is important.

Not just the symptoms of money, but the underlying beliefs and identity that create these symptoms. And they go through it. And Joe just fights everything every step of the way. And the reason for the fight in the struggle in the book is to allow the reader to experience the same resistance. Because if you just say, oh, this is what you should do, this is what's healthy.

But you don't engage the person in that same struggle and resistance. I think that you just, it's over their head. 

Right. Right. So, and this is, if I were to read the book, this is laid out, I could actually take precepts from the book. I know it sounds like, obviously it's fictional. I think that the story helps people remember things a lot better. Mm-hmm. , um, is that why you chose to write it that way, or, 

Yeah, well, it, the book evolved over four years. Originally it was like, a, platonic or Socratic dialogue, and it was in just like script form. And the criticisms, Scott Adams, the Dilbert creator, he said, "eh,"

So, we went through several revisions and made it warmer, more story so that people could really identify with the characters. There's a bit of romance in it. Money and Joe, the character, money and Joe, talk about the deepest issues and how to reframe them to invite yourself to rapport with money, meaning, and success.

One of the things that I read in your bio, uh, was basically why self-help books don't work. ? 


So I'm fascinated about this now, . Okay, so lemme ask you, go ahead. Sorry. No, go. I was just gonna say, I wanted to ask you about that, like why don't self-help books 

work? Yeah. If I pulled up my green screen, you could see my library behind me.

I've got, you know, maybe a hundred self-help books there. And if I look at them, I read them and I go, yeah. . Oh, that's great advice. Oh, yeah. But if I'm not taking that down to my deepest levels, my identity, my beliefs about the world, uh, how they translate to my behaviors and I try to change my behavioral issues without the deeper issues, uh, it's more difficult.

Like sometimes I'm just ready, like I say, with that dream and somebody on a self-help book. Just creates a path to more healthy living. I'll go, boom, I'm ready. But if on the deeper level we have survival mechanisms that we've learned since childhood and the survival mechanisms say, "oh, we can survive this, this belief system, but we don't know if we can survive that one."

So then of course the self-help book becomes a, a platitude that we don't incorporate. 

 How, how would you get into the, that deeper belief system? Now I'm thinking, I do keep asking you hard questions, but um, you're bringing up intriguing thoughts for me. So how, how would I find out that underlying belief system that, that survival system that's inside me, that is somehow, although the top of mind is saying, that sounds great and I'm gonna do it.

The rest of me, the core of me, is resisting that change because of survival. 

Yeah, well the first, again, we go back to awareness and like for example, I'll have a potential client call me and in the first 30 minutes we usually get down to that level. And how I do it is I watch the, it's a Zoom meeting. Um, so I watch their face and when they say something or we get to a certain area, I can just see a breathing change or facial structure change and I'll.

Hmm. What? I want you to exaggerate that, uh, through what? Yeah, exaggerate your face, huh? Well, I noticed that the brow was wrinkled and your jaw got tight when you said that. Oh, okay. Wrinkle. Okay. What is a voice that says that What voice is coming up? I'm really angry at my dad and through that physiology, sometimes very quickly, we can get down to those levels, but that requires someone who's willing to take the risk, who trusts the process that we're doing enough.

And is willing to stare into that abyss because our survival mechanisms, like, I can give you examples in my life, but it would take too long where I had a survival, I had a depressed mom, a narcissistic father. My survival mechanism was being alone and hoping for crumbs from somebody to to be noticed.

Well, that survival mechanism actually creates a resistance. To people who want to love me and notice me because I, I did not know how to survive that. I know this sounds crazy, but we repeat survival mechanisms because we know we can survive them, but we don't know how to survive something better.

It sounds insane that I've seen it repeated over and. All right, 

so along that line, let's say that I took a self-help book, let's say, atomic Habits, by James Clear. Good book. And it is, it is a wonderful book. And let's say that I said, okay, and, and this actually will be business coaching time for you, because this is what I tell my listeners.

This is what I would tell anybody who asked that you could read a hundred books a year, and if you don't do anything from it, mm. , it's worthless. It doesn't really mean all that much. Maybe the information will be useful in the future, but if you don't do something, why read the book? So I tell them, you know, pick your top three things that you've, that stuck out that you feel like you should do.

Mm-hmm. . And then just pick one of those and make it a habit. Just pick one thing and, and make it a habit. Mm-hmm. . So let's say they get to that point and now they're not making it a habit. They said they were gonna do it. They said, I'm just, I'm just gonna walk around the block every day. So 

let's look at the language you used, if I may.

Okay. One thing I should do, if we use the term should, we're settling ourselves up for an internal conflict, I should do it. Okay. Just do it. Well, there's a part that isn't, so what I, when somebody says I should do this, I reframe it and say, It's going to feel so good when I do the one thing to start a habit and just walk along around the block in the morning.

So it's an invitation to step into something that feels better. Our personal change happens when we step into something that feels better in the moment. So that's part of why we go back to awareness. How can I frame this? So right now it feels better. No shoulds, no discipline, no willpower, but stepping into something that feels better.

I love 

it. I love it. Zig Ziglar always said that life gets a lot better when you decide that you get to instead of you got to. Oh man. 

That's right on. 


 Why is it so hard to change behaviors? 

Yeah, I, I think we're coming back to the, the stacking, you know, if it's, we have knowledge, we have skills, we have beliefs, we have behaviors, and we have our identity.

So if we're out of alignment on any of those, we'll have the internal resistance and it can be subconscious. So in my work is, you know, is to work our way down to the foundation. And, and the, and the shift of our worthiness. For example, I have a, an exercise I do with them, it has to just rebirthing and growing ourselves up as a worthy person.

And sometimes people will just go, oh my God, . Oh geez, that one's easy. Now let's look at your life from those eyes. Oh my gosh. I realized how I was setting myself up for. Oh, I'm done with that. Much like that voice for me in the middle of the night. Other times that unworthiness is a quarantined area that is so deep that we just sand away at it and it takes some time.

So depending on the earlier, sometimes if we have an early deep trauma that takes some time to. Okay, 

so I, I actually want to get back to your book. I am, I'm gonna order a copy of your book and cuz I wanna read through it. And I'd probably love to have you back on the show afterwards cuz that could lead to an even deep conversation just about the book.

But in, in getting back to your book and, and kind of discussing money, you talk about providing value and to be more focused on providing value. 

 There's two twins, equal intelligence abilities, looks the whole bit, and one of them says, "I wanna make a lot of money. How can I make money? Hmm. I can sell this, I can do this. And uh, boy, if I make some money, I'm gonna be worthy. I'm gonna prove to dad that I'm the better of the twin. I'm going to get a hotter spouse. I'm gonna have a Ferrari. I'm gonna have the mansion and the second home, I'm gonna get respected. Boy, I'm going to make some money and get all that."

The other twin says, "Hmm, how can I add value to my family and the people around me. How can I leverage my skills and my ability to add the most value to the most people in the world?"

Now, they can both make money. They can both get rich, but if we're trying to fill a hole in our heart, something we're missing with money, oh, it's a neverending treadmill.

If on the other hand, we are complete as human beings. And looking for creative ways to deliver more value, and the more value we deliver, the more certificates of appreciation we can collect. Now, here's the really scary thing for a lot of my, the people I talk to. Are you ready for something that's scary?

I am. The more certificates of appreciation you collect. The more value you have delivered to the world. That flies in the face of the one pie model, there's only so much money and it's not theirs, and they have more than their fair share. If we're delivering value, there is no limit to 'em. I mean, imagine if everyone in the world woke up tomorrow and said, "Hmm. Given my abilities, how can I deliver more value? What skills do I need to deliver more value?" What if everybody woke up with that? Do you know how much value we would just explode in the world? It would be amazing. 

 So how do we then, Make sure that we're delivering value. I guess that's my first of a two-part question. . 

Okay, so value is determined. If I wanna deliver value to you, I can say, Matt, I know exactly what you need. I know exactly what you should do, and here's what you're going to buy to get there.

That's me determining value for you. If on the other hand, I talk to you and say, , what do you need? What do you want? What are your desires? Is there anything that I can do to fill those to deliver value to you? So value is determined in my model by the receiver. In other words, you determine value for yourself.

It's my job to com to then to either say, ah, can't deliver value to you, or Can I devalue, deliver value on your terms. 

Okay. So if I were looking. If I were looking for making a better living than I am right now, I don't wanna say seeking more money. Right. But if I were looking for a better living, I mean, I could just call everybody up in my network and say, Hey, these are my skills.

Mm-hmm. , how can I, how can I help you? How can these help you? And just lay that out to everybody. Mm-hmm. and see what happens. 

That is really interesting. I had never thought of it like that before. So you're taking. The model that we're talking about here and you're saying, how can I put it into action? Yes.

Huh. I love it. 

That's, uh, but then I guess the second part of the question is how do I know how much my value is worth? What should I 

ask for ? A lot of my clients undervalue what they're delivering because they're thinking in their own terms and they don't appreciate, oh, sometimes, you know, I go to the airline counter, the person is just really stressed out.

He's had three bitchy client, you know, people coming in line and I'll say, how you doing? Thanks for being. I just delivered some value, we don't sometimes appreciate, from the receiver's point of view, how, what a huge difference that can make.

So our job is to, again, value from your point of view. How much cer, how many certificates of appreciation can I get in return? And if we value yourselves, we value our worthiness, we value what we're delivering, then we can keep increasing it. I keep increasing my prices until people go, ouch. 

 I want to know more. Trading value for certificates of appreciation. That is, that is kind of where I am. I feel like I am missing a key component in that. 

Okay. We could just create. , uh, okay. There's a person who is, you know, working for $20 an hour and has a lot more skills and he owes somebody a favor. How does, how does he manage that? Keep 

going with that. How does he manage 


First is to recognize the value that he has and the value that he or she is. Once I say, I'm a worthy person, I'm delivering a hundred dollars an hour worth of value, and here's this person who's been a, had a good relationship with and they've done favors for me in the past, and they want my my skills for $20 an hour.

So first of all, I can recognize the value they delivered. I don't have to put that down. I can appreciate what they've done. I also can. How much value I'm worth doing higher level things rather than lower level skills. I can recognize the difference between those thi things and decide, am I going to continue this relationship because of the value that I've received, or am I going to.

Explain that I have more value that can be done in another type of work, and I can really find somebody for you who can do this better. In fact, I could even manage it for you so that you don't have to worry about it. Okay? 

Now, when you do that though, if there is any kind of a price raise, I mean, you are assuming some risk when you decide that you want to get more certificates 

of appreciation.

Ok, let's stop right there. "I'm assuming some risk." What if you rephrased that and said, on my way to getting more certificates of appreciation, I'm going to get some feedback. That feedback is going to be really valuable and I'm looking forward to it on my march to getting more certificates of appreciation for the value I deliver.

I'm going to learn a lot. I am of value, and if somebody doesn't recognize it, do I not communicate it well? Do I give a subconscious message that I'm not worth it? Whatever it is. Each time I ask for more certificates, what have I learned about myself and my personal growth? So rather than looking at it as a risk, you can look at it as an information feedback machine.

 Okay. Um, that could still leave me not having that part of my job. Let's say , 

it could and, oh my God, I don't have that part of my job. Oh my God, what's gonna happen next? So that moves us into the fear. So what if we. If, if we bring that kind of fear to a negotiation, you know how it's going to end?

That's . 

That might be the most valuable thing that you said on this podcast today, . That's true. You're absolutely right. Don't bring that fear to the negotiation. It's gonna end, it's it gonna end with me. Gone. Or making 20 bucks an hour. That's what it's gonna end with. ? This is a great conversation. I, I, I really appreciate you. I appreciate you coming on. I appreciate, so how you mentioned Scott Adams. Mm-hmm. , how did you get your book in front of Scott Adams? 

I met him at an event. It was a small event and uh, I was there early cuz I didn't know how much long enough to be there.

He was early and so we had about a half an hour. Very interesting conversation. Okay. 

And then he just read your book or read 

your manuscript. Uh, he read the first chapter and gave it two thumbs down,

Well, there's your feedback. That is excellent. 

So again, this relates to our prior conversation. Wow. Did, did I go, oh my God. Uh, this book is not gonna make it. Uh, I or did I say, Hmm, what did he say? How can I improve it? So it was, you know, four years later, uh, major revisions I had, since I have a large email list, I had everybody read it, comment on it.

I had a Google Doc so people could, you know, strike out and comment and write things on it. Oh my gosh. The improvements that were made. Value again, as we talked about earlier, is in the eyes and ears and the experience of the receiver. So Rich Friesen has a message he's going to make a phone it out, . Wow.

But if on the other hand, the people who are receiving the message can help me shape it so they can hear it. So that's where, you know, I, again, it's feedback and it's wonder. Right. So 

one of the things that I, I notice about, and I've been thinking about it with value and certificates of appreciation, is that that kind of thinking could help bridge that divide that we have in the nation.

Mm-hmm. . 

Well, you're now talking about a deep cultural divide. Whereby it can be divided into outcome and process. It can be divided into

external events, create meaning, or I have agency to create meaning. So if we look at external events, Packaged with a meaning, then I need to change the external events to feel okay. If it's, if we look through the lens of process and outcome, we can say, oh, the outcome isn't fair. It isn't just, or we can look at as a process, what can we do in our own processes to change the outcomes that we want? So if we focus on process, then all of a sudden we're looking at better education, we're looking at parenting, we're looking at how we teach our kids or the values, um, and all of that. So how do we create process? that improves everybody's outcome. If we're just looking at outcome, then we can go into social justice and say, oh my God, things aren't fair, and we got to change the world in order to make things fair.

We're looking at outcome versus process. 

This is fascinating to me. I, I don't usually discuss. Money on this podcast. Mm-hmm. , I mean, we're usually talking about precepts of social or personal development, and I can, you know, pick one and I can dig into it.

And, and there's, you have such a broad range that it's like, oh my gosh, what question do I ask you next? . And I'm, I mean, I, I'm enjoying this. It's one of the reasons though, that I definitely wanna read your book and give you back onto the show. Uh, but before we go, before we end this podcast, There is a question that I like to ask all of my guests.

If you had 43 seconds and you had the entire world on the line for 43 seconds, what would you tell them? Ask 

yourself, how can I deliver more value to my family, my community, my employer, my employee to my clients and customer? What skills do I have? What skills do I expand? How can I continually reinvent myself to be of service?

How do I turn the value I deliver into certificates of appreciation? Wow. 

I love it. I love it. That's really good, . Well, thank you so much for being on this show. I really appreciate having you. 

I appreciate the challenging questions. Uh, we didn't skimp, we went right to the core of things and you asked the hardest questions, but the right hard questions.

So my appreciations well that I hope 

that that helped you bring value to my audience and, and yours as well.